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steve j
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Posts: 177

Group #1

 

 

1.  ARTHUR SHERMAN 'ART' WEBB - 1920 Roch -  attended Genesee Wesleyan Academy. He was born 06/19/1888 in Rochester,  and died there on 12/31/54.  An article from the Rochester  Democrat & Chronicle  of 03/15/18  mentions him playing for the Rochester Jeffersons.  He became a police chief in the Rochester  area.   The person who is listed on most websites,  who died in Ohio in 1973 is not the player.  Webb is also listed as playing for Milwaukee in 1922, which may be accurate, but it seems rather  strange that a 34-year-old with a total Rochester-area background would move to Milwauikee for a year, so I'm wondering if that might be a different Webb.

 

 

2. GEORGE EDWARD BEYER - 1921 Wash - He was born in Washington on 10/10/1893, and died 05/15/82.  His obit is in the Washington Post of 05/18/82.  Unfortunately, his obit does not mention his FB experience.  However, Beyer played for several  sandlot and service teams, including the Navy Yard team, and this person's draft card and the 1920 census both list his occupation as a machinist in the Navy Yard, so I believe this has to be the player.  He ls listed in various articles as Beyers or Byers, but his real name is Beyer.

 

3.  EUGENE CALVIN MOORE - 1938 Bkn - attended Natrona County HS (Casper, WY), U of Colorado.  He was born 08/21/13 in Boise, ID, and died 03/15/88 in Merced, CA.  Yearbooks from both schools verify his playing career, and fortunately, one of them listed his middle name.  He seems to have used the name Gene on many official records. Person who is listed on most websites is Eugene Robert Moore, who is listed in Fannin County, TX, on censuses from 1920 to 1940, and has no connection to football. ,

 

 

Thank you.

March 3, 2016 at 6:09 AM Flag Quote & Reply

steve j
Member
Posts: 177

Group #2

 

 

4. GEORGE ALLEN 'FATTY' HARRIS - 1921 Louisville - He was born in Louisville on 08/11/1897, and died there  11/30/62.   His obit, which mentions his athletic career and includes a picture, is in the Louisville Courier-Journal, 12/09/62.  Person listed on other websites, who died in 1963, was not the player.

 

 

5.  WILLIAM JOSEPH 'BILL' RYAN - 1924 Rochester - attended Shenandoah (PA) HS, Fordham University.  He was born in Shenandoah on 10/11/1895, and died there 12/03/68.   He became a pro boxer at the same time, using the name 'Eddie Hayes'.  There is a listing on other websites for 'Hayes' with no first name  for the 1924 Rochester team, and I believe this is Bill Ryan playing under his other name.  A 1922 Fordham directory listed his address  as Shenandoah, PA.  The person who went to Englewood HS in Chicago, and played for the 1924 Cardinals, and 1925 Milwaukee was a different person. Data confirmed by his granddaughter.

 

 

#6  JOHN DARREN RODGERS - 1982 - 1984 Pittsburgh - Attended Daingerfield (TX) HS, LA Tech, He was born 02/07/60 in Omaha, TX, and died in Daingerfield on 01/02/95. Incorrect death date of 2003 shown on most other websites was result of copying error, using one John Rodgers for birth date and a different one for death date.

 

Thank you.

 

March 10, 2016 at 9:54 AM Flag Quote & Reply

steve j
Member
Posts: 177

Group #3

 

 

7. JOSEPH 'JOE' LAFLEUR - 1922-24 Chi Bears -- attended St. Norbert's College, Marquette U. He was born 03/29/1898 in Escanaba, MI, and died in a car accident in Wells, MI, on 05/11/43.  Data is in Escanaba Daily Press of 04/25/08, on LaFleur's induction into Upper Peninsula HOF.  Person listed as Henry Joseph Lafleur, who died in 1973,  is not the player.

 

 

8.  VIVIAN PAUL 'VP' THOMAS - attended Rock Island (IL) HS. He was born 02/01/1897 in Maquoketa, IA, and died in Storm King, NY, on 12/19/27.  This is the player who is listed on all sites as Vernon Thomas.  I have never seen him referred to as Vernon or Vern in any Rochester article during his career. He is always called VP Thomas.  Article in Rochester Democrat & Chronicle of 09/21/20 mentions Leo Lyons awaiting the arrival of VP Thomas, a back from Rock Island, IL, who was delayed by a construction job in PA.  Also, the Rock Island Argus of 10/27/21 mentions Vivian Thomas, a local high school FB and track star, playing in Rochester. Birth data from 1917 draft card.

 

 

9.  JACK LENARD FREEMAN - 1946 Bkn - attended U of Texas.  He was born 01/20/22 in Mexia, TX, and died in Houston, 07/23/90. Data is in U of Texas alumni letter, 05/91.  All websites have a typo that proliferated, which listed his death year as 1970 instead of 1990.

 

 

Thank you.

March 13, 2016 at 7:23 AM Flag Quote & Reply

steve j
Member
Posts: 177

Group #4

 

 

10.  PATRICK JAMES "BUCK' GAVIN - 1920 -1926 Buf, Det, RI, GB, Ham - He was born 06/08/1891 in Spring Valley, IL, and died 10/14/43 in Chicago.  He was a plumbing inspector for the City of CHicago, and  was involved in a  case in September, 1931, which gained nationwide attention,  in which a  young woman died of gunshot wounds in Gavin's apartment after a drinking party.  Gavin was arrested and charged with the murder, but evidently was not convicted.   He was listed as a former pro  football player in all acounts,  mentioning the teams he had played with. The person named Patrick  Marvin Gavin, from Amenia, NY, was not the player. 

 

 

11.   HAROLD KING  'BABE' CLARK - 1920 - 1922  Roch - attended East HS (Rochester). He was born  01/14/1891 in Avon,NY, and died in  Rochester, on 04/17/51.  His obit, which mentions his FB career, is in the Rochester Democrat & Chronicle of 04/19/51.  His record is listed on all sites under Otho Clark, who happened to be Harold's older brother, and who did play high school ball.   However, Otho was not nicknamed 'Babe', and had already moved to Kentucky before 1920. This is a rather confusing situation, because the real first name  of both "Babe' and Rochester teammate 'Butch' Clark is Harold.

 

 

12. JAMES EDWARD 'JIM' WOOD - 1920 - 1924 Roch - He was born 08/06/1896 in Chicago, and died in Rochester on 06/13/75.  His obit in the Rochester Democrat & Chronicle of 06/16/75, mentions him playing with the Jeffersons. He's listed as 'Woods' in most accounts of that time period, but  he was interviewed by  Robert Wheeler in a book about JIm Thorpe in 1967, and is listed as 'Wood'. Further research lists him as  "Jim Wood' in articles concerning reunions of former Jefferson players.

 

 

Thank you.

March 19, 2016 at 10:19 AM Flag Quote & Reply

steve j
Member
Posts: 177

Group #5

 

13. FRANK J SKINNER - 1922 Evansville - attended Shortridge HS (Indianapolis) - He was born 04/06/1891 in Montreal, Quebec, Canada, and died 10/18/35 in Indianapolis. Obit in Indianapolis Star, 10/20/35.

 

14. LEWIS BRITTAN 'LEW' SKINNER - 1920 Hammond, 1922 Evansville - attended Shortridge HS (Indianapolis) - He was born in Indianapolis, 05/29/1898, and died there from injuries suffered in an auto accident on 09/20/42.  Obit in Indianapolis Star, 09/22/42.

 

 

15. JOHN FRANCIS 'FRANK' FITZGERALD - 1923 Toledo - attended Holyoke (MA) HS, U of Detroit.  He was born in Holyoke on 08/22/1896, and died in Detroit on 07/23/61. Obit, which mentions his pro football career, is in the Detroit Free Press, 07/24/61. He became a circuit court judge, and ran for Mayor of Detroit. The person who died in Springfield, MA, in 1976 is not the player.

 

 

Thank you.

April 3, 2016 at 11:15 AM Flag Quote & Reply

LJP
Member
Posts: 72

HARRY RICHMAN

ChiB 1929 / NFL and other sources list him as being born 9 January 1907 in Chicago, although the Illinois, Cook County Deaths, 1878-1994 on FamilySearch.org record him as being born in Concord, MI. Died 18 November 1966 in Chicago.

April 3, 2016 at 2:58 PM Flag Quote & Reply

LJP
Member
Posts: 72

DAN RAINS

ChiB 1982 / NFL and other sources list his date of birth as 26 April 1956. However, Rains admitted to lying about his age when he was signed by the Bears and he was later busted by teammate Tyrone Keys (Chicago Tribune). There are public records hits for him with a date of birth of 26 April 1954, which fits the story.

April 3, 2016 at 3:07 PM Flag Quote & Reply

steve j
Member
Posts: 177

LJP at April 3, 2016 at 2:58 PM

HARRY RICHMAN

ChiB 1929 / NFL and other sources list him as being born 9 January 1907 in Chicago, although the Illinois, Cook County Deaths, 1878-1994 on FamilySearch.org record him as being born in Concord, MI. Died 18 November 1966 in Chicago.

LJP,

         Thanks for the information on Rains, and especially on Harry Richman.  Even though I had the information that someone named Harry Richman died on 01/18/66, I was not 100% sure that it was the player, since I could never find any record linking the birthdate that came from U of Illinois to the 1966 death.  I knew that the last address listed in the U of I 1948 Sports Directory was on Jarvis Ave., which is close to the address where this person was living at the time of his death, but I don't like to list anyone unless I'm positive. Now that I know it's the right person, his name will be added to the 1966 Necrology List.  Thanks again.

 

                                                                                            Steve J 

April 4, 2016 at 11:34 AM Flag Quote & Reply

steve j
Member
Posts: 177

Group #6

 

 

16. DONALD GEORGE 'DON' RIDLER - 1931 Cleve - attended MIchigan State. He was born about 1907, and died in Novi, MI, on 06/04/63. Obit is in Detroit Free Press, 06/05/63. I could not find exact birth date.

 

 

17. CLARENCE EDWARD 'C E, or NUBBIN ' BOOTH - 1943 ChiC, 1944 Card-Pitt - attended Childress (TX) HS, SMU. He was born 09/04/19 in Childress, TX, and died in Junction, TX, 04/23/74.  His wife's obit in the Junction Eagle of 07/16/2008, mentions her husband's FB career, and his exact death date.

 

 

18. JOHN PETER 'TIGER' SCHMIDT - 1940 Pit - attended Carnegie Tech (now Carnegie-Mellon). He was born in PA, on 08/12/18, and died in Whitehall, PA, on 04/06/2005. His obit is in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette of 04/07/2005. Strangely, he is listed with the correct birth date on most websites, but a death date in 1979, which belonged to a different John Schmidt who was born in 1917, was incoprrectly attached to him.  He was the much older brother of Hall of Famer Joe Schmidt.

 

 

Thank you.

April 7, 2016 at 8:07 PM Flag Quote & Reply

steve j
Member
Posts: 177

Group #7

 

19  HAMILTON JAMES 'BABE GREEN - 1926 ChiC, 1926 Louisville - attended St. Ambrose College (Iowa), Loyola U (Chicago).  He was born in MIssouri, on 07/12/1899, and died in California, on 06/08/58. He is listed as Edward 'Babe' Greene, but no such person ever attended Loyola.  Articles and Loyola newsletters list him as Hamilton 'Babe' Green.  A 09/21/1939 article from the Chicago Garfieldian mentions him being a former Loyola star, and having played with the Chicago Cardinals and Louisville. The person who is listed for Louisville is Vivian 'Vee' Green, of Illinois, who had been a center in college, but is listed as a tackle with Louisville.  In 1926, Vee Green was a full-time high school coach in Waukegan, which does not necessarily disqualify him from having played with Louisville (which was a traveliing team based in Chicago), but evidence indicates he was not the pro player, and should not appear on Louisville's roster. Additionally, a teammate of Babe Green's on Louisville was Joe Bush (listed below), who was his teammate at St Ambrose and Loyola.

 

 

20. ROY MAXIMILIAN 'JOE' BUSH (born BUSHKEVITZ). - 1926 Louisville - attended Moline (IL) HS, St. Ambrose, Loyola (Chi).  He was born 04/11/05 in Los Trujillos, New Mexico, and died in Davenport, Iowa, on 10/23/76.  He is listed as Ray Bush on other websites, but Loyola newsletters refer to him as Roy 'Joe' Bush, or just Joe Bush.  He had 3 sons who played football for Notre Dame.

 

 

21.JEREMIAH GEORGE 'JERRY' CRONIN- 1932 Bkn - attended Rutgers U. He was born 04/06/10 in NYC, and died in New Milford, CT, on 01/13/97.  He had a brother, George, who played for Rutgers, and is listed as playing for the 1936 NY Yanks of AFL II.  The person listed on most websites, who died in 1984, is not the player.

 

 

Thank you.

April 16, 2016 at 10:51 AM Flag Quote & Reply

LJP
Member
Posts: 72

BOB ALLMANN

 

ChiB 1936 / NFL has his date of birth as 28 February 1913 and they do not record him as deceased. Other sources have different dates.

 

Lettered at Michigan State in 1934 & 35. He is recorded on their list of all-time letterwinners as Robert M. Allman, with his hometown/highschool as Bay City MI/Central.

 

A Robert M Allmann appears on the 1920 US Federal Census in Bay City and again in 1930.

 

In 1940, he in Los Angeles and is recorded as completing 4 years of college education.

 

The Obituary Daily Times has an entry for Robert Melvin Allmann, born 24 May 1914 at Alma MI, died 16 September 1999 Los Osos CA.

 

His surname appears as Allmann and not Allman on all of these records.

 

The Robert D Allman, born 28 February 1913, who died 14 August 1995, does not appear to be the player.

April 18, 2016 at 5:16 PM Flag Quote & Reply

LJP
Member
Posts: 72

Re: ALLMANN

Date of Death was 10 Septmber 1999.

April 18, 2016 at 5:27 PM Flag Quote & Reply

LJP
Member
Posts: 72

YOUNG BUSSEY

 

NewB 1940 ChiB 1941 / Bussey was killed in action during World War II at Lingayen Gulf, Luzon. Most sources appear to indicate that he died on 7 January 1945, although there are other dates too.

 

17 January 1945 sometimes appears, although this was when the Associated Press first reported he was missing in action and cannot be the actual date.

 

The https://www.abmc.gov/node/498288#.VxXXjUenJlQ" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">American Battle Monuments Commission records his date of death as 12 January 1946, although this is clearly wrong. I believe that this was the date that he was officially declared deceased (KIA) instead of missing (MIA).

 

The Defense POW/MIA Accounting Agency records his date of loss as 11 January 1945, which would presumably be the actual date.

 

Does anyone know a source for the 7 January 1945 date?

April 19, 2016 at 3:03 AM Flag Quote & Reply

LJP
Member
Posts: 72

RELATIVITY - ROWLAND BROTHERS

 

The Pro Football Hall of Fame maintains a list of brothers who have played pro football. Whilst the list has not been updated recently, it is missing at least one set of brothers.

 

HB Brad Rowland (D5-1951/#60) played for the Bears in 1951, before military service (Army) in 1952-53.

 

His younger brother Justin Rowland (D12-1959/#140/Future) played for the Bears in 1960, Vikings in 1961 and Broncos in 1962.

 

The Bears 1960 media guide confirms their relationship and they appear together on the 1940 US Federal Census.

 

Andrew Bradford Rowland Jr. born 14 July 1928 Hamlin TX

 

Justin David Rowland born 10 May 1937 Hamlin TX

 

To my knowledge, both are still alive.

April 27, 2016 at 7:02 AM Flag Quote & Reply

steve j
Member
Posts: 177

Group #8

 

 

22.  JOHN JAMES  CAMERON -  1926 Det - attended Kalamazoo College, Central Michigan U.  He was born 07/03/01 in Torch Lake, MI, and died in Brandon, FL, on 12/29/74.  Sources are FL Death Index, census records.

 

 

23.  HAROLD CLAYTON 'HAL' SPRINGER - 1945 NYG - attended Elk City (OK) HS, Central Oklahoma U.  He was born 11/24/21 in Elk City, OK, and died in Pensacola, FL, 07/21/96.  Data came from military records, and was verified by his son.  Person listed on all sites, who was born on 05/10/22 in Albuquerque, NM, and died in NYC on 05/17/81, is not the player. There was a person named Harold William Springer who was born in NY on 05/10/22, and died in NY in 1975.

 

 

24.  HAROLD FREDERICK 'HAL' HANSEN - 1923 GB, 1926 Newark (AFL) (player-coach), 1932 Staten Island (coach) - attended U of Minnesota  He was born 11/30/1894 in Minneapolis, and died 06/23/77       in Annandale, VA.  I had originally had this person listed in the section for players from the 1926 AFL who had no NFL experience.  I recently found confirmation from a 1923 Ironwood, MI, newspaper that mentioned him being signed by Green Bay. In 1924 he left Ironwood, going up  to GA Tech to be a coach, after which he went to Newark in 1926. The person who is listed on most websites, Harlan Hansen, did play as a lineman for the U of Minnesota, but never in the pros.

 

 

Thank you.

May 8, 2016 at 12:15 PM Flag Quote & Reply

steve j
Member
Posts: 177

Group #9

 

 

25. HAROLD WILLARD 'HAL' BRADLEY SR. - 1928 Chi Cards - attended U of Iowa. He was born in Coffeyville, KS, on 09/27/05, and died in Chicago, on 11/30/73.  Data from FamilySearch.org.

 

 

26. HOMER J REYNOLDS - 1934 St Louis Gunners - attended Tulsa University. - He was born 07/24/09 in Oklahoma, and died in St. Louis on 01/31/80.  There are 2  other persons named Homer Reynolds listed on various FB websites - one who died in Texas in 1981, and one who died in Virginia in 1988.  Neither of those had any connection to Tulsa or football.  An article in a 1934 St. Louis newspaper reported the marriage of St Louis Gunners' player Homer Reynolds and Marie Roth, a female ice hockey player. Sadly, she died in 1942 at the age of 26, leaving a daughter, Linda.  In the obit of Homer Reynolds in 1980, he was survived by one daughter - Linda.

 

 

27. EDWIN A 'EDDIE' ROBINSON - 1923-26 Hammond, 1926 Louisville - attended Oak Park (IL) HS. He was born in Chicago on 07/24/03, and died in St. Joseph, MI, on 12/07/72. His obit in the Benton Harbor (MI) News-Palladium of 12/08/72 mentions that he had played professional football and basketball in the Chicago area in the early 1920's.  Person named Eldred Robinson on other websites is not the player.

 

 

Thank you.

May 10, 2016 at 10:31 AM Flag Quote & Reply

steve j
Member
Posts: 177

Group #10

 

28. AUDREY ALLEN 'AL' MOORE - 1939 GB  -  attended Texas A & M. He was born 06/18/15, and died in Jackson County, OR, on 07/28/91.  Obit in Medford (OR) Mail-Tribune, 08/01/91, mentions playing with Green Bay. Allen A Moore who died in 1968, and is listed on several websites, is not the player.

 

29. VICTOR L. WHITMARSH - 1921 Det - attended Detroit Central HS, Syracuse U. He was born in Detroit on 03/15/1896, and died there on 03/21/69. Death notice is in Detroit Free-Press, 03/23/69.

 

 

30. JOHN ALLEN 'AL' YOUNG - 1926 LA Buccaneers - attended U of California - He was born 04/10/01 in Janesville, WI, and died in CA on 01/26/69.  Playing career confirmed by family member.  Person on all websites, who died in Corning, CA, in 1980, is not the player.

 

 

Thank you.

May 15, 2016 at 11:18 AM Flag Quote & Reply

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