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LJP
Member
Posts: 72

Problem is that in 1932 there is a reference to C.H. Edwards of Brown being with the Bears.


It's possible that both were with the Bears, "Jim" in 1931 and "Bud" in 1932, or was it just "Bud" both times? Did he play under his brother's name with the Bears in 1931 because he was under contract with Providence?

July 22, 2016 at 12:08 PM Flag Quote & Reply

steve j
Member
Posts: 177

LJP,

       I would go along with the idea that Howard Edwards was the 1931 Bears player, since he is the person listed in the early part of the season.  Since Bud had already played with Providence in the previous year, it's not likely that he could have gotten away with playing a game with the Bears. As for the listing of C H Edwards for the 1932 Bears, Providence no longer had a team, so it's understandable that he would try to catch on with his hometown team. I found an article about him signing with a St. Louis minor league team in October of 1932, after his release from the Bears.  I will have him added to our website this week.  Thanks again.

                                                               Steve J

July 23, 2016 at 9:27 AM Flag Quote & Reply

sorens1
Member
Posts: 1

LJP at December 4, 2015 at 9:19 AM

JERRY KEEFE

Dec 1920 / On 28 November 1920 against the Cardinals at Normal Park, the Decatur Staleys had a Keefe play on the line, as a substitute for RG Jerry Jones. The Chicago Tribune report makes no mention of Keefe, but the more detailed Decatur Review report states that "Jones was forced out of the contest" and in the Staleys substitutions, it clearly lists Keefe for Jones.


The Bears Honor Roll (all-time roster) first appeared in their 1952 Media Guide and a Jerry Keefe is listed from the start as playing G in 1920. Colleges were first listed in the 1954 edition, but there is nothing listed for Jerry Keefe until 1973, when he is first marked as deceased and Notre Dame appears.


The Decatur Review buildup to the Staleys-Cardinals game does mention that several Staleys were in bad shape and that Halas would have "one or two Notre Dame men sitting on the bench to be prepared for any emergency".


The only known Notre Dame players on the Staleys squad in 1920 were Jerry Jones & George Trafton and they both started on the line that day. The next Notre Dame players to play for the Staleys/Bears were Hunk Anderson, Hec Garvey & Ojay Larson, who had all been kicked off the Notre Dame team for playing in the Green Bay-Racine game in 1921.


Notre Dame's all-time roster has no mention of a Jerry Keefe, only Walter Keefe (1904 & 06) and Emmett Keefe (1912-15). Looking through the 1919 & 1920 Notre Dame Football Reviews, there is no Keefe listed on the varsity, freshman or inter-hall teams.


Emmett Keefe was known to Halas & Jones and had played with them on the 1918 Great Lakes Naval Training Station team (he is sat between them in the team photo). However, Emmett Keefe was playing for the Chicago Tigers in 1920 and appears to have started at LG on 28 November 1920 in their game at Cubs Park.


The Tigers game was scheduled to kickoff at 14:30. Other than it was played during the daytime, I have so far been unable to find a kickoff time for the Staleys game, but unless it was a morning game, then it would seem unlikely that the same player participated in both games (Cubs Park & Normal Park were some 15 miles apart), so presumably the Keefe's are different people.


Notre Dame finished their season on 25 November 1920 at Michigan State, so did they Staleys borrow one or two of their linemen for the 28 November game and play them under an assumed name? Assistant football coach at Notre Dame from 1919-22 was Walter Halas,


Complicating things, the Staley's played a post-season exhibition game with the Logan Squares on 16 January 1921. In the buildup to the game it was noted that a number of the regular Staleys were unavailable for this contest and a few "Chicago" players would take their places. Consequently, starting at RG that day for Jones was a Keefe.


Now this could easily be Emmett Keefe, or the "Keefe" from the earlier game.


Additional complications - during the late 1940s and early 1950s, artwork on the covers of some of the Bears home programs is credited to a Jerry Keefe. Also, in 1956, the Bears held a Staleys reunion and one of the players who could not be found was Jerry Keefe.


There are a variety of errors on the Bears all-time roster, many of them uncorrected from when it was first compiled. It's possible that the Bears just mixed up the "Keefe" from 1920 with the Jerry Keefe and the Notre Dame reference may come from Emmett Keefe.

Dear LJP,

I am working on the bios of all men associated with the 1920 Decatur Staleys 

http://staleymuseum.com/staleys-bears/ ;

I have now concluded that the Keefe who played for the Staleys on Nov. 28, 1920 and January 15, 1921 was Emmett [he seemed to spell his own name "Emmet"] George Keefe, born in Indiana, April 28, 1923.  As you pointed out, he played on the line for Notre Dame in 1912, 1913, 1914, and in 1915 along with Jerry Jones.

I believe that there was no "Jerry" Keefe in 1920 and came from an error once made by Decatur sportswriter Howard V. Millard.  

Here are my reasons:

1.  Emmett Keefe and Jones played together at Notre Dame; Halas, Jones and Keefe all played together at Great Lakes.  Halas liked to hire people he knew.

2.  Yes, Emmett Keefe played for the Chicago Tigers in 1920 but the APFL games were over for them before Nov. 28 so the game that day again the lowly Tornados did not count in the standings or later for NFL records.

3. I believe that both the Chicago and Decatur newspapers got the "box score" lineups wrong and just used the regular lineups in reporting the results the next day.  Ergo, Keefe for the Tigers game and Jones for the Staley game across town.  Erroneous reporting was not unusual at that time, especially since the reporters didn't usually attend the games.

4. On Saturday, Nov. 27, 1920, page 4, the DECATUR HERALD reported that "Manager Halas of the Staleys has signed Keefe, of the Tigers, who will play left guard for the Starch Workers Sunday.  The game will wind up the professional grid season in this city." [e.g. Chicago]

5.  On Tuesday, Nov. 30, 1920, page 4, the DECATUR HERALD in talking about the upcoming game against the Cardinals reported: "TEFFE MAY PLAY"  "Teefe, former Notre Dame star, who played with Staley against the Cardinals last Sunday will be back with the locals Sunday if Ingwerson's knee is still out of condition.  With that exception the locals will use the same lineup as used all through the season."  I believe that "TEFFE" is a typo for Keefe.  

6.  Decatur sportswriter Howard V. Millard reffed some of the Staley games in 1920, reported the results for the newspaper, and was paid to hype the team in the monthly STALEY JOURNAL published by the factory.  On page 12 of the January 1921 edition he recaps the November 28, 1920 Staley game against the Cardinals and explains that Ingwersen, Jones and Chamberlin were all hurt.  He lists KEEFE subbing for Jones as soon as the game starts.

7. In 1956 the Staley company is searching for former players to attend the reunion that Halas has planned for October at the now Wrigley Field.  Millard reports whenever a player is found.  In his "Bait for Bugs" sports column on Wednesday, Sept. 26, 1956 in the DECATUR DAILY REIVEW, page 13 he reports that he just heard from Andy Feitchinger in Oregon who plans to attend.  "Then on the desk when we arrived this monring was a letter from Charles Keefe, Raub, Ind., to advise that the Staley gridder was his brother, Emmett G. Keefe, and not Jerry.  That Jerry never did click with Bait but Emmett certainly does and to think that he has been residing in Chicago for many years and with the Pullman Co.  Emmett was one of the older fellows to play with the Starchworkers for he was with Knute Rockne and Gus Dorais who made football history when the Irish sank the Cadets of West Point.  He later assisted Rockne at Notre Dame and was a member of the famous Great Lakes team that had a number of stars who later played with the Staley eleven assembled by Halas."

8.  If you know where Keefe is buried, please let me know.

--
September 8, 2016 at 4:49 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Tod Maher
Member
Posts: 15

JOHNNY SCOTT - Despite what this and other websites say his name is NOT Ian Grant. Ian Grant was a player at Lafayette AFTER Johnny played there - and he was known by his middle name Grant.

Johnny was kick out of Lafyette for poor grades on 2/15/1916, while Ian Grant was the team captain (and also a lineman not a back) in 1918 (also lettering in 1917 and 1919). Johnny was in playing for service teams in 1917 and 1918 and then starring for the Holmesburg A.C. in 1919.


September 30, 2016 at 8:31 PM Flag Quote & Reply

steve j
Member
Posts: 177

Tod Maher at September 30, 2016 at 8:31 PM

JOHNNY SCOTT - Despite what this and other websites say his name is NOT Ian Grant. Ian Grant was a player at Lafayette AFTER Johnny played there - and he was known by his middle name Grant.

Johnny was kick out of Lafyette for poor grades on 2/15/1916, while Ian Grant was the team captain (and also a lineman not a back) in 1918 (also lettering in 1917 and 1919). Johnny was in playing for service teams in 1917 and 1918 and then starring for the Holmesburg A.C. in 1919.


Tod, Thanks for the data on Scott. I had been away for about a week, and hadn't checked the website till last night. It's always fascinating when someone totally new is discovered. I usually try to dig further when the player is called by a name that's neither his first nor middle. However, since Ian is the Scottish equivalent of John, I didn't pursue it. I did find birth and death data for the right Johnny Scott, and he'll be added to our database shortly, and Ian will be removed. Thanks again. Steve J
October 5, 2016 at 7:55 AM Flag Quote & Reply

LJP
Member
Posts: 72

Re: Jerry Keefe


Hi sorens1. Sorry I missed your post at the time.


Thanks for the additional information. I don't have access to the Decatur Herald and only limited access to the Decatur Review, so can only piece together what I can.


It did seem quite logical that Emmett Keefe was the player, although the fact that he appeared to play for the Tigers the same day was an issue. Some sources do list him as the player. Sometimes both are listed.


I think the Bears probably just mixed him up with the Jerry Keefe who did their program covers in the 40s and 50s.


I have seen your work on the Staley Museum site - all good stuff. I have compiled a lot of information on the 1919 Staley team, if you are interested?

October 7, 2016 at 5:33 AM Flag Quote & Reply

steve j
Member
Posts: 177
Sorens, I apologize for the lateness of this acknowledgement, but I really appreciate your input clarifying the Keefe situation, and also for mentioning that newspapers often listed the regular lineup for a team, instead of those who actually appeared that day. I have come across several instances where the account of a game listed a player having made a block or stopping a run, but finding no listing for that player in the box score. Thanks again. Steve J
October 24, 2016 at 8:22 PM Flag Quote & Reply

steve j
Member
Posts: 177
LJP, Thank you also for your contribution to the Keefe situation, and all the other information you pass along. Do you have any information on Eddie Novak, the running back for RI and Minneapolis in the early 1920's? I obtained an obit for the guy who is listed on all websites, who died in 1984. That person was a farmer who lived his entire life in a small rural community, and seemingly had no connection to football. Thanks. Steve J
October 24, 2016 at 8:40 PM Flag Quote & Reply

LJP
Member
Posts: 72

JOE TAYLOR


ChiB 1967 / The Bears all-time roster has had CB Joe Taylor marked as deceased for the past 15 or so years, although I'm struggling to find any evidence one way or another.


His NFL.com player page indicates he is alive, not deceased anyway. They list his date of birth as 27-Aug-1939 in Miami, FL.


His date of birth in the Bears media guides varies during his playing career, with 27-Aug-1939, 27-Aug-1940, 27-Dec-1940 & 28-Dec-1940 all listed at one time or another. His place of birth is consistent throughout. Most sources appear to have his full name listed as Joseph Lee Taylor, although his given name the in media guides is Joe Taylor or Joseph Taylor.


Taylor lettered at North Carolina A&T State from 1958-61 and was drafted by the NY Giants in 1962. He spent a year on the taxi squad, before showing up in the Continenttal Football League in 1965-66 with the Toronto Rifles. The Bears signed him as a free agent in 1967 and he played with them through 1974. He missed the 1975 season due to injury and subsequently retired.


A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Taylor_(American_football)" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Wikipedia entry for Joe Taylor indicates that he died on 15-Jun-2001 in Thomasville GA, which ties in with when he first appears as deceased on the all-time roster. However, there is no source citation for this date and whether it is the same Joe Taylor or not. The source appears to be a corresponding SSDI entry with DoB 27-Aug-1940 and DoD 15-Jun-2001.


There were a number of Joe/Joseph Taylor's born in Florida around 1939/40, so quite which one he was is a puzzle. I can't see any obvious current stories relating to him, but also no obituary either, although my newspaper access is quite limited.


Any ideas?

February 28, 2017 at 5:28 AM Flag Quote & Reply

steve j
Member
Posts: 177
LJP, I talked to the librarian at the Thomas County Library in Thomasville. He verified that the person who died there in 2001 was definitely the player. Thanks for your interest. Steve J
March 4, 2017 at 10:33 AM Flag Quote & Reply

LJP
Member
Posts: 72

DON BISHOP


1958 Pit / Attended Los Angeles City College and played for the Steelers (1958-59), Bears (1959) and Cowboys (1960-65). Most sources appear to have him listed as Donald William Bishop born 01-Jul-1934. His NFL.com player page says he was born in Los Angeles CA and is alive (not deceased anyway), although other sources list Rawlings VA as his birthplace.


Some source indicate that he died on 13-Nov-1998, although that was a Donald Walter Bishop, who was born 07-Jul-1934 in California. The California birth index has a corresponding entry for Donald Walter Bishop.


So, the only puzzles are 1) full name 2) date of birth 3) place of birth & 4) alive or dead?

March 29, 2017 at 5:15 PM Flag Quote & Reply

steve j
Member
Posts: 177
LJP, Great find on Bishop! The guy who died in 1998 was a white man. The player was black. Also, I saw an article that mentioned Bishop being a Los Angeles native. If so, that eliminates the guy from Virginia, although I'll check that out further, because I've known people personally who consider themselves a native of a place even though they weren't born there, because they started living there as a baby. Thanks again for your help. Take care. Steve J
March 30, 2017 at 4:59 AM Flag Quote & Reply

LJP
Member
Posts: 72

Re: BISHOP

The Don Bishop born in (Rawlings) Brunswick County VA on 01-Jul-1934 was a Donald Lee Bishop.


He is probably the same person who is living in Westfield NJ on the 1940 US Federal Census (parents: Ashton & Mary Bishop).


There are later Public Record hits for a Donald L Bishop born 01-Jul-1934 living in CA.

March 30, 2017 at 5:04 AM Flag Quote & Reply

LJP
Member
Posts: 72

LEO KEANE

Jim Keane's bio in old Bears Media Guides mentions that his father played for the Rock Island Independents.


Census records show Jim's father was Leo Keane (born Patrick Leo Keane 14-Apr-1895 in Bellaire OH and died 17-Jan-1977 in Bellaire).


The Philadelphia Inquirer of 21-Aug-1946 mentions the same and says Leo played End for Rock Island against Halas and the Staleys.


Leo is in Bellaire on all of the available census records and 1940 indicates he attended College for 1 year.


The Inquirer mentions that the family surname was pronounced as Kane.


Rock Island were in the APFA/NFL from 1920-1925 and joined the AFL in 1926, although there doesn't appear to be a record of a Keane, Kane, or similar, playing for them.


Any ideas?

October 18, 2017 at 6:16 AM Flag Quote & Reply

LJP
Member
Posts: 72

TOM FORREST

The Bears 2014 Media Guide lists the passing of G Tom Forrest (1952-2014) who played 8 games for them in 1974. His player page on NFL.com was later updated to indicate he was deceased.


However, I have never been able to find an obituary or actual date of death for him.


The Bears 1975 Media Guide records his full name as Thomas Wesley Forrest, born 11-Apr-1952 in Washington DC. He attended in High School in Hyattsville MD.


There are public record hits from 2001 for a Thomas W Forrest with the same date of birth in Glenarden MD. Other more recent searches (Whitepages, etc) appear to indicate the same person is still living in Waldorf MD? I know these searches are not always accurate or up to date, but other names at the same address match previous records.


The Maryland State Archives have a Death Certificate Index that includes up to the end of 2014, but I cannot locate an entry for Tom in there. OK, so he maybe died elsewhere (DC?), but given the lack of any other evidence, is he in fact still alive?


Any ideas?



October 22, 2017 at 6:03 AM Flag Quote & Reply

LJP
Member
Posts: 72

CLARK


This one is as obsure as you can probably get in the context of these forums. In the 1920 Decatur Staleys team photos is a player identified as CLARK. He is listed in the program for the Moline Tractors game on 03-Oct-1920 as a Tackle wearing #23. A so called "Independent" player, he seemingly has no prior college football experiene. He did not play in the opening game against Moline and there does not appear to be any other contemporary reference to him.


There are various subsequent known references to the player, albeit later in the 1950s and beyond. At some point or another, he is "Bill" Clark, or "Charlie" Clark, or (as per Mark Sorensen's research for the Staley Museum - staleymuseum.com) "A.B." Clark, or "Harry" Clark.


As far as I am aware, there are at least three different team photos for the 1920 Staleys team, all featuring the relevant Mr. Clark. The usual photo of the team is the one front of the Staley Field stands has Clark standing between Roy Adkins and Andy Feichtinger. Adkins is recorded as 5'7" and Feichtinger 5'11" for what those numbers are worth. Clark appears to be slightly infront of Feichtinger, but still somewhat taller than him, so around 6'0" and a fairly hefty build.


The other two photos have the Staley team lined up on the field, apparantly in order (left to right) of height, from Ross Petty down to Leo Johnson. Clark is the sixth player from the left, between Walt May (6'1") and Jack Mintun (5'11"), again seemingly around the 6'0" mark. The other photo is a group photo on the field, with Clark again in between May & Mintun.


Looking through the various records, there would appear to be a number of possible people in Decatur that could be a fit at that time. There are two William Clark's who are in Decatur through the period of the available census records, although they would appear to be a little old to be on the Staleys team in 1920 (NB- the 1919 team did have two 32-year olds, Henry Halterman and George Moffett playing on the line).


A William Edward Clark was born in Decatur on 06-Jul-1885 making him 35 at the start of the 1920 season. He worked on the railways as a repairman. A slightly older William Clark was born 19-Aug-1883 in Shelby Co. IL. Again, he is in Decatur throughout and was a blacksmith in the ironworks. Outside of their respective ages, both are recorded as 5'8" on their WWII Draft Registration cards, which would seem to eliminate them from being the player in the photos.


William Edward Clark did however have a younger brother called Charles Clark, born 19-May-1886. He is also in Decatur throughout and is recorded as a Grocer. His WWII card lists him as 6'0" and 200lbs, which would appear to be much more inkeeping with the person in the photos.


Any other options?

November 25, 2017 at 3:46 PM Flag Quote & Reply

LJP
Member
Posts: 72

TYLER?


Another obsure one. At the start of the 1926 NFL season the Bears had a FB listed as Tyler on the roster. He is mentioned in the Chicago Tribune in the buildup to the Milwaukee game (19-Sep-1926) and also in the Wisconsin papers prior to the Green Bay game (26-Sep-1926). He did not play in either game.


All sources appear to indicate he was a Dartmouth College player and played on the 1925 Championship team. Problem is, Dartmouth don't appear to have any record of such a player around that time.


One possible player would appear to be George Tully, who lettered at Dartmouth in 1924 and 1925 and subsequently played in the AFL in 1926 with the Philadelphia Quakers and in the NFL in 1927 with the Frankford Yellow Jackets. George is recorded as 5'10" 180 and played End. The Bears "Tyler" is also listed as 180 (no height available) and was a FB.


Is Tyler just a typo that was copied by other papers?


Any ideas?

December 6, 2017 at 8:00 AM Flag Quote & Reply

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